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	<title>Comments on: Starbucks, babies, etc.</title>
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	<description>Books and policy from an endlessly curious perspective</description>
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		<title>By: mrz</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-905</link>
		<dc:creator>mrz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-905</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Cripes, did my post get eaten because it says bre&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;astfeeding?&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cripes, did my post get eaten because it says bre<em></em>astfeeding?<br /></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mrz</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-906</link>
		<dc:creator>mrz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-906</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ll have to remember to use that trick next time I need to say a controversial word like fu&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;ck or what-have-you. I laugh at your sp&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;m filter now!&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll have to remember to use that trick next time I need to say a controversial word like fu<em></em>ck or what-have-you. I laugh at your sp<em></em>m filter now!<br /><br /></p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steve Laniel</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-907</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Laniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-907</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Your post got blocked because it contains the name of a card game that&#039;s often featured at the back of bars that feature liquor in the front. I&#039;ll repost it for you.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;(And yes, nearly everyone who posts about that card game is a spammer.)&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your post got blocked because it contains the name of a card game that&#8217;s often featured at the back of bars that feature liquor in the front. I&#8217;ll repost it for you.</p>

<p>(And yes, nearly everyone who posts about that card game is a spammer.)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mrz</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-908</link>
		<dc:creator>mrz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-908</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the only thing Coffee and C-Sections have in common is the letter C...Cue Big Bird.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think the delivery scenario you&#039;re talking must be regional or vary by doctor or something. I think most moms do get to deliver just fine. I think where C sections are getting popular are people who do them electively.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As far as post-birth, I think that must vary by doctor/nurse. I haven&#039;t heard any discouraging words about breastfeeding from any doctors or nurses. They usually seem quite pro with talk of antibodies and what-not. However, my sister got enormous pressure against breastfeeding in the UK. Luckily, she gave them the old Agincourt salute.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As far as artisanal coffee, I&#039;d say it&#039;s like any other artisanal thing. If you want the real deal, you have to find a mom &amp; pop hole in the wall. The corps just can&#039;t do it. They&#039;re too busy cutting this and that to make their stock price look good. So you end up with places like Starbucks for coffee or Panera for bread, where the product is consistant and decent, but nothing to write home about. But that&#039;s all they can really do given their constraints.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I mean, some things just don&#039;t scale up well. If you want real art, go find a starving artist. Otherwise, you go to the mall and get a lithograph of Ansel Adams or Dogs Playing Poker or whatever. The latter must sell to the broadest population it can. They might offer some cool pictures and help elevate people&#039;s awareness, but at the end of the day, they have to make $$$ to raise stock prices. Sell, sell, sell what sells! And in America, that&#039;s consistancy, baby!&lt;/p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p></p><p>I think the only thing Coffee and C-Sections have in common is the letter C&#8230;Cue Big Bird.</p><p>I think the delivery scenario you&#8217;re talking must be regional or vary by doctor or something. I think most moms do get to deliver just fine. I think where C sections are getting popular are people who do them electively.</p><p>As far as post-birth, I think that must vary by doctor/nurse. I haven&#8217;t heard any discouraging words about breastfeeding from any doctors or nurses. They usually seem quite pro with talk of antibodies and what-not. However, my sister got enormous pressure against breastfeeding in the UK. Luckily, she gave them the old Agincourt salute.</p><p>As far as artisanal coffee, I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s like any other artisanal thing. If you want the real deal, you have to find a mom &amp; pop hole in the wall. The corps just can&#8217;t do it. They&#8217;re too busy cutting this and that to make their stock price look good. So you end up with places like Starbucks for coffee or Panera for bread, where the product is consistant and decent, but nothing to write home about. But that&#8217;s all they can really do given their constraints.</p><p>I mean, some things just don&#8217;t scale up well. If you want real art, go find a starving artist. Otherwise, you go to the mall and get a lithograph of Ansel Adams or Dogs Playing Poker or whatever. The latter must sell to the broadest population it can. They might offer some cool pictures and help elevate people&#8217;s awareness, but at the end of the day, they have to make $$$ to raise stock prices. Sell, sell, sell what sells! And in America, that&#8217;s consistancy, baby!</p> ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steve Laniel</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-909</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Laniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-909</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;C-sections being elective: read the article.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Now, as for artisanal coffee being impossible from an industrial sort of place ... wouldn&#039;t you think there&#039;d be a chance that they&#039;d do it &lt;em&gt;better&lt;/em&gt; than a mom-and-pop place? My suspicion is that it&#039;s less the industrialization than it is some very specific facts about American corporations -- namely the legally mandated need for profit maximization -- that lead to the low quality. You could industrialize, in the sense of buying all your supplies in enormous quantities and mass-training lots of people according to a rigidly-adhered-to set of standards, and you might actually get a good product at the other end. In other words, why must it be consistently mediocre, rather than consistently good? It seems to me that industrialization is more about the consistency than about the quality, or at least it needn&#039;t be about the quality.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What seems to affect the quality is more the need to maximize profits, which means cutting costs, which means things like buying less-good coffee beans and spending less time training your employees (See &quot;Donalds, Mc.&quot;).&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C-sections being elective: read the article.</p>

<p>Now, as for artisanal coffee being impossible from an industrial sort of place &#8230; wouldn&#8217;t you think there&#8217;d be a chance that they&#8217;d do it <em>better</em> than a mom-and-pop place? My suspicion is that it&#8217;s less the industrialization than it is some very specific facts about American corporations &#8212; namely the legally mandated need for profit maximization &#8212; that lead to the low quality. You could industrialize, in the sense of buying all your supplies in enormous quantities and mass-training lots of people according to a rigidly-adhered-to set of standards, and you might actually get a good product at the other end. In other words, why must it be consistently mediocre, rather than consistently good? It seems to me that industrialization is more about the consistency than about the quality, or at least it needn&#8217;t be about the quality.</p>

<p>What seems to affect the quality is more the need to maximize profits, which means cutting costs, which means things like buying less-good coffee beans and spending less time training your employees (See &#8220;Donalds, Mc.&#8221;).</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mrz</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-910</link>
		<dc:creator>mrz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-910</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;C-sections being elective: read the article.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I quickly read it. Obstetricians like it, I&#039;m sure but also, women are choosing to have it at their own behest well before entering the hospital for labor. But frankly, the woman whose baby was transverse, I don&#039;t blame them for wanting to do a C-section. That&#039;s hard to deal with.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do agree that C-sections will likely get more common, maybe even the default, but I think there will be a long &quot;conversation&quot; on this over time and I think a lot of women want to give birth vag&lt;em&gt;&lt;/em&gt;inally. So I don&#039;t think the techniques to deal with non-C-section births will disappear, even if C-section becomes the safest alternative.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I&#039;ll talk more about coffee later, but I think you&#039;re agreeing with mrz on the point of profit maximization causing problems in the &quot;Why can&#039;t big companies produce artisanal coffee&quot; area.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><blockquote>C-sections being elective: read the article.</blockquote></p><p>I quickly read it. Obstetricians like it, I&#8217;m sure but also, women are choosing to have it at their own behest well before entering the hospital for labor. But frankly, the woman whose baby was transverse, I don&#8217;t blame them for wanting to do a C-section. That&#8217;s hard to deal with.</p><p>I do agree that C-sections will likely get more common, maybe even the default, but I think there will be a long &#8220;conversation&#8221; on this over time and I think a lot of women want to give birth vag<em></em>inally. So I don&#8217;t think the techniques to deal with non-C-section births will disappear, even if C-section becomes the safest alternative.</p><p>I&#8217;ll talk more about coffee later, but I think you&#8217;re agreeing with mrz on the point of profit maximization causing problems in the &#8220;Why can&#8217;t big companies produce artisanal coffee&#8221; area.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jacob Grier</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-911</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Grier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-911</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is &quot;the libertarian&quot; of the linked article here. If you don&#039;t mind the hives, I&#039;ll add a few thoughts.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Based on my experience in the industry, the problem isn&#039;t profit maximization so much as it is scalability (as mrz says). Espresso preparation is an extremely finicky process given current technology. You&#039;ve got to have skilled baristas who care about what they&#039;re doing, paying attention to all the little details that can make a potentially great drink mediocre if the variables wander off track. Those people are hard to find. Despite the perks of being a barista, the odd hours, physically demanding work, and comparatively low wages mean that career baristas are hard to come by. Most people working in coffee shops want something short-term or on the side; finding the few who will get passionate about quality is hard to do. And if it&#039;s tough to staff a boutique coffee shop with such people, it&#039;d be nearly impossible in a big chain.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I was recently hired to revamp the coffee program at a bakery and coffee shop in DC&#039;s Georgetown area. The owners became sincerely interested in making great coffee a few months ago and invested significantly in better beans, new equipment, and my own salary. As a coffee lover, I admire them for that. But there&#039;s no doubt that they&#039;re after profit maximization, too. They&#039;re taking a financial hit now with the expectation that their sales will increase in the long term. If they don&#039;t, I&#039;m sure they&#039;ll start reverting back to some of their old ways and drop my pay. Financially, they&#039;ll have to.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;To give a concrete example, our shop has eliminated 20 oz. espresso and milk drinks. If the highly automated Starbucks did that they&#039;d be throwing money away. For us, it&#039;s a way of projecting an image of quality through the things we say &quot;no&quot; to and of speeding up our production process. Maybe we lost a few customers; we&#039;d probably lose more if we wasted time in the morning rushes pulling extra shots and steaming bigger pitchers of milk. Love of espresso played a role in the decision, of course -- more than it would in a large corporation -- but given the realities of running a small business, the need for maximizing profits is a constant factor and constraint. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;A second consideration is the pool of employees and customers a shop can draw from. In cities like Seattle where there are lots of people with barista skills and customers with demanding palates, it&#039;s easier to maximize profits by pursuing quality. In DC, both of those pools are a lot smaller. Fewer coffee lovers, fewer baristas who can walk into a new shop and learn the ropes right away. Niche markets are smaller and training takes longer. This city&#039;s getting better though.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I do agree with you that the corporate focus on profit maximization does tend to emphasize consistency over quality compared to a dedicated small business, especially given the relatively low demands made by the majority of coffee consumers today. But even if a big corporation suddenly decided to convert to best practices, they&#039;d face huge problems of scale. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Good luck on the espresso hunt in Boston!&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is &#8220;the libertarian&#8221; of the linked article here. If you don&#8217;t mind the hives, I&#8217;ll add a few thoughts.<br /><br />Based on my experience in the industry, the problem isn&#8217;t profit maximization so much as it is scalability (as mrz says). Espresso preparation is an extremely finicky process given current technology. You&#8217;ve got to have skilled baristas who care about what they&#8217;re doing, paying attention to all the little details that can make a potentially great drink mediocre if the variables wander off track. Those people are hard to find. Despite the perks of being a barista, the odd hours, physically demanding work, and comparatively low wages mean that career baristas are hard to come by. Most people working in coffee shops want something short-term or on the side; finding the few who will get passionate about quality is hard to do. And if it&#8217;s tough to staff a boutique coffee shop with such people, it&#8217;d be nearly impossible in a big chain.<br /><br />I was recently hired to revamp the coffee program at a bakery and coffee shop in DC&#8217;s Georgetown area. The owners became sincerely interested in making great coffee a few months ago and invested significantly in better beans, new equipment, and my own salary. As a coffee lover, I admire them for that. But there&#8217;s no doubt that they&#8217;re after profit maximization, too. They&#8217;re taking a financial hit now with the expectation that their sales will increase in the long term. If they don&#8217;t, I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;ll start reverting back to some of their old ways and drop my pay. Financially, they&#8217;ll have to.<br /><br />To give a concrete example, our shop has eliminated 20 oz. espresso and milk drinks. If the highly automated Starbucks did that they&#8217;d be throwing money away. For us, it&#8217;s a way of projecting an image of quality through the things we say &#8220;no&#8221; to and of speeding up our production process. Maybe we lost a few customers; we&#8217;d probably lose more if we wasted time in the morning rushes pulling extra shots and steaming bigger pitchers of milk. Love of espresso played a role in the decision, of course &#8212; more than it would in a large corporation &#8212; but given the realities of running a small business, the need for maximizing profits is a constant factor and constraint. <br /><br />A second consideration is the pool of employees and customers a shop can draw from. In cities like Seattle where there are lots of people with barista skills and customers with demanding palates, it&#8217;s easier to maximize profits by pursuing quality. In DC, both of those pools are a lot smaller. Fewer coffee lovers, fewer baristas who can walk into a new shop and learn the ropes right away. Niche markets are smaller and training takes longer. This city&#8217;s getting better though.<br /><br />I do agree with you that the corporate focus on profit maximization does tend to emphasize consistency over quality compared to a dedicated small business, especially given the relatively low demands made by the majority of coffee consumers today. But even if a big corporation suddenly decided to convert to best practices, they&#8217;d face huge problems of scale. <br /><br />Good luck on the espresso hunt in Boston!</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steve Laniel</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-912</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Laniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-912</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hi Jacob!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thanks for all the great and insightful comments. And sorry for the knock on libertarians. At some point I&#039;ll explain the hives business.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I live in D.C., actually, and Murky is my idol. At which caf&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jacob!</p>

<p>Thanks for all the great and insightful comments. And sorry for the knock on libertarians. At some point I&#8217;ll explain the hives business.</p>

<p></p><p>I live in D.C., actually, and Murky is my idol. At which caf</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Adam Rosi-Kessel</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-913</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Rosi-Kessel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-913</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;(1) I agree with mrz.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(2) This entry is a egregious conflation of topics that should never be discussed together. You will never be president.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;(3) They just opened the &lt;b&gt;fifth&lt;/b&gt; Starbucks within a block of my office.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(1) I agree with mrz.<br /><br />(2) This entry is a egregious conflation of topics that should never be discussed together. You will never be president.<br /><br />(3) They just opened the <b>fifth</b> Starbucks within a block of my office.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jacob Grier</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2006/11/16/starbucks-babies-etc/comment-page-1/#comment-914</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Grier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 1970 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/food_and_drink/starbucks_pushbutton.html#comment-914</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No worries, Steve, I make jokes about libertarians, too. And I&#039;m glad you like Murky. Their Arlington store is where I first learned the ropes.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The place I work at now is Baked and Wired, on Thomas Jefferson St. by the canal. We&#039;ve got a new La Marzocco espresso machine and are serving up Counter Culture beans. We don&#039;t have all the pieces in place yet -- still lots of training to do, still waiting for some ceramic cups to arrive -- but things are improving. Stop in some time and I&#039;ll hook you up.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;We&#039;re open 7-6 on weekdays. As business expands beyond the nearby offices, we&#039;ll expand hours and hopefully open Saturdays.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No worries, Steve, I make jokes about libertarians, too. And I&#8217;m glad you like Murky. Their Arlington store is where I first learned the ropes.<br /><br />The place I work at now is Baked and Wired, on Thomas Jefferson St. by the canal. We&#8217;ve got a new La Marzocco espresso machine and are serving up Counter Culture beans. We don&#8217;t have all the pieces in place yet &#8212; still lots of training to do, still waiting for some ceramic cups to arrive &#8212; but things are improving. Stop in some time and I&#8217;ll hook you up.<br /><br />We&#8217;re open 7-6 on weekdays. As business expands beyond the nearby offices, we&#8217;ll expand hours and hopefully open Saturdays.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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