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	<title>Comments on: Standards-making bodies</title>
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	<description>Books and policy from an endlessly curious perspective</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen Laniel&#8217;s Unspecified Bunker &#187; Some questions about writing interoperable websites</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2008/03/05/standards-making-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-5711</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Laniel&#8217;s Unspecified Bunker &#187; Some questions about writing interoperable websites</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/?p=4069#comment-5711</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;[...] more about interoperability fetishism, a few specific web problems occur to [...]&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] more about interoperability fetishism, a few specific web problems occur to [...]</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: slaniel</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2008/03/05/standards-making-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-5697</link>
		<dc:creator>slaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/?p=4069#comment-5697</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, I have a particular attachment to that Architecture Astronauts article, because it was written about a former employer back when I was working there. Specifically: everything he says in there about Groove is true. They built in a ton of functionality -- lots of things that Joel doesn&#039;t even mention -- that it turned out no one needed, and it took them &lt;em&gt;years&lt;/em&gt; to reverse those decisions. The architecture was supposed to be Groove&#039;s saving grace, but instead it was a great sin.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think what you&#039;re saying about that Joel article is &quot;Don&#039;t take lessons from it that Joel doesn&#039;t really intend for you to take.&quot; Which is good advice for any text, software or otherwise.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I have a particular attachment to that Architecture Astronauts article, because it was written about a former employer back when I was working there. Specifically: everything he says in there about Groove is true. They built in a ton of functionality &#8212; lots of things that Joel doesn&#8217;t even mention &#8212; that it turned out no one needed, and it took them <em>years</em> to reverse those decisions. The architecture was supposed to be Groove&#8217;s saving grace, but instead it was a great sin.</p>

<p>I think what you&#8217;re saying about that Joel article is &#8220;Don&#8217;t take lessons from it that Joel doesn&#8217;t really intend for you to take.&#8221; Which is good advice for any text, software or otherwise.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mrz</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2008/03/05/standards-making-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-5696</link>
		<dc:creator>mrz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 20:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/?p=4069#comment-5696</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;In fact, it&#039;s probably best to just stop reading things like Joel on Software for a while. I find it&#039;s very easy to read stuff like that and get mislead by either the inherent over-generalization articles like that make or to fail to really get at the kernal of truth in most of those articles.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Yes, there is valuable knowlege to be gained but I find many articles by people who are experienced basically boil down to: Don&#039;t do this dumb thing or, more specifically, don&#039;t get too wrapped-up/excited about X becuase then you&#039;ll do this dumb thing, or I/my team/my coworkers/my boss did this dumb thing, please don&#039;t do this dumb thing. This can be important, but you have to be very careful because one person&#039;s interpretation of what makes a thing &quot;dumb&quot; can be quite different. That means, you have to be very careful about extracting meaning from stuff like this.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;It&#039;s very easy to over-generalize or miss the point. It reminds me of a Buddhist saying that goes something like &quot;...thus we should be more like the baby, but if you say to people &#039;The baby is the Way&#039; they will misunderstand you.&quot; So for this article, it&#039;s very easy to jump from &quot;architecture astronauts&quot; to &quot;OMFG STARDARDS IZ 4 DA RETARDS!!!111 MARKETZ R00L!!&quot;. Again, the kernel of truth here is more like &quot;If you overdesign things in a vacuum without understanding the requirements, you will create a solution in search of a problem. Moral of the story: Don&#039;t get over-excited about your own interior interpretation of things or you will do a dumb thing.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Again, I&#039;m not so down on articles from Joel on Software, but keep that grain of salt handy.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact, it&#8217;s probably best to just stop reading things like Joel on Software for a while. I find it&#8217;s very easy to read stuff like that and get mislead by either the inherent over-generalization articles like that make or to fail to really get at the kernal of truth in most of those articles.</p>

<p>Yes, there is valuable knowlege to be gained but I find many articles by people who are experienced basically boil down to: Don&#8217;t do this dumb thing or, more specifically, don&#8217;t get too wrapped-up/excited about X becuase then you&#8217;ll do this dumb thing, or I/my team/my coworkers/my boss did this dumb thing, please don&#8217;t do this dumb thing. This can be important, but you have to be very careful because one person&#8217;s interpretation of what makes a thing &#8220;dumb&#8221; can be quite different. That means, you have to be very careful about extracting meaning from stuff like this.</p>

<p>It&#8217;s very easy to over-generalize or miss the point. It reminds me of a Buddhist saying that goes something like &#8220;&#8230;thus we should be more like the baby, but if you say to people &#8216;The baby is the Way&#8217; they will misunderstand you.&#8221; So for this article, it&#8217;s very easy to jump from &#8220;architecture astronauts&#8221; to &#8220;OMFG STARDARDS IZ 4 DA RETARDS!!!111 MARKETZ R00L!!&#8221;. Again, the kernel of truth here is more like &#8220;If you overdesign things in a vacuum without understanding the requirements, you will create a solution in search of a problem. Moral of the story: Don&#8217;t get over-excited about your own interior interpretation of things or you will do a dumb thing.&#8221;</p>

<p>Again, I&#8217;m not so down on articles from Joel on Software, but keep that grain of salt handy.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mrz</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2008/03/05/standards-making-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-5694</link>
		<dc:creator>mrz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 18:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/?p=4069#comment-5694</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Also, let&#039;s not forget HTML. Started out as some academic thing, got a few more nudges from industry, but is still significantly based on the original acedemic idea.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, let&#8217;s not forget HTML. Started out as some academic thing, got a few more nudges from industry, but is still significantly based on the original acedemic idea.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: mrz</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2008/03/05/standards-making-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-5693</link>
		<dc:creator>mrz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Mar 2008 16:54:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/?p=4069#comment-5693</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree with what I haven&#039;t said yet...for the most part.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Generally, you have to let folks thrash around for a while to figure out where things are going because you can&#039;t necessarily architect stuff up front. That said, sometimes, it&#039;s OK to take a look at the field and say &quot;Man, these &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; suck. Let&#039;s do something smarter.&quot; and make that the standard. That doesn&#039;t always work, but sometimes it does. Am I wrong in thinking CSS was like this? That is, everybody took a look at all the crap going on with HTML tables and what-not and said &quot;Man, this all sucks. Let&#039;s figure out the right way to do this.&quot; and lo and behold we get CSS. Gratned, it&#039;s not 100% adopted or whatever, and it needed some follow-on work, but it&#039;s getting wider and wider adoption because folks see it as going more in the right direction than making everything flash or continuing to screw around with tables or what-have-you.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with what I haven&#8217;t said yet&#8230;for the most part.</p>

<p>Generally, you have to let folks thrash around for a while to figure out where things are going because you can&#8217;t necessarily architect stuff up front. That said, sometimes, it&#8217;s OK to take a look at the field and say &#8220;Man, these <em>all</em> suck. Let&#8217;s do something smarter.&#8221; and make that the standard. That doesn&#8217;t always work, but sometimes it does. Am I wrong in thinking CSS was like this? That is, everybody took a look at all the crap going on with HTML tables and what-not and said &#8220;Man, this all sucks. Let&#8217;s figure out the right way to do this.&#8221; and lo and behold we get CSS. Gratned, it&#8217;s not 100% adopted or whatever, and it needed some follow-on work, but it&#8217;s getting wider and wider adoption because folks see it as going more in the right direction than making everything flash or continuing to screw around with tables or what-have-you.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: slaniel</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2008/03/05/standards-making-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-5692</link>
		<dc:creator>slaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 13:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/?p=4069#comment-5692</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think the answer is economics!&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In practice, I wonder how the politics here work out. And would it be better just to let the market work out the confusion on its own? That&#039;s how Beta v. VHS worked out, right?&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;To really answer the question involves, I&#039;m sure, digging into a lot of particulars. Some companies probably stack standards-making bodies with members that are friendly to them; some use the market to destroy the competition; etc. Shapiro and Varian have a chapter devoted to this.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the answer is economics!</p>

<p>In practice, I wonder how the politics here work out. And would it be better just to let the market work out the confusion on its own? That&#8217;s how Beta v. VHS worked out, right?</p>

<p>To really answer the question involves, I&#8217;m sure, digging into a lot of particulars. Some companies probably stack standards-making bodies with members that are friendly to them; some use the market to destroy the competition; etc. Shapiro and Varian have a chapter devoted to this.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://stevereads.com/weblog/2008/03/05/standards-making-bodies/comment-page-1/#comment-5688</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 12:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stevereads.com/weblog/?p=4069#comment-5688</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree with mrz, and he hasn&#039;t even responded yet.  I also agree with you that experience is the best dictator of standards.  Standards should form in the wake of innovation.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The problem comes at convergence-time, when there is a lot to be gained by having &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; implementation become the standard (less code I have to change, more change for my competition).  The politics of this process can lead to drawn-out battles that hurt the consumer (HD-DVD v. Blu-Ray, anyone?) and delay further innovation.  Any ideas on that problem?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with mrz, and he hasn&#8217;t even responded yet.  I also agree with you that experience is the best dictator of standards.  Standards should form in the wake of innovation.</p>

<p>The problem comes at convergence-time, when there is a lot to be gained by having <em>my</em> implementation become the standard (less code I have to change, more change for my competition).  The politics of this process can lead to drawn-out battles that hurt the consumer (HD-DVD v. Blu-Ray, anyone?) and delay further innovation.  Any ideas on that problem?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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